Nessie, a correspondence

Whilst perusing the internet, I happened across what I thought was a well-rounded website of sceptical reasoning and factual debate. Oh boy was I wrong. There was an article regarding a fossil of some water reptile found in Scotland, which was light heartedly shoe-horned into the myth of Nessie (of inhabiting Loch Ness fame) which wasn’t the problem for me. No, that came from the contents of the article, which of course was set out so as to debunk the myth. That’s fine, I don’t actually believe that a dinosaur/mythological creature resides in the Loch; I’m not a fool, often a drunken one, certainly, but not one as a rule!

Anyway, the author of the article deliberately left out much in regards to the mythology and fact surrounding the legend, whilst using these omissions to further bolster her blinkered ‘bullet point’ style argument. Regardless, I took to task one of her fawning commenters, who had proclaimed the first sighting to have been in the 30s, which is factually wrong (but these self-righteous types don’t let fact get in the way of their higher-educated/superior circle-jerks) And once I did, well, hell hath no fury like an academic scorned, or challenged for that matter, for it seemed as though this den of reasoned debate was actually inhabited by people that don’t respond well to having their intellect challenged, and certainly not by a humble, country breed jock of simple ways and manners, such as myself.

Regardless, she began to argue with me in a passive-aggressive kind of way, ‘no you’re wrong, read this book…educated yourself, yeah’ type of way. Though again, that’s fine by me, as I’m already incredibly intelligent (I’m not gonna lie) and I don’t need a fuckin framed scrap of paper to reassure myself of this. Anyway every time she answered back, it was as though she deliberately missed every one of my points, neither tackling them, nor disproving them, and simply continued to recommend a selection of what I can only assume is her favourite night time reads.

This “stunningly intelligent academic” who clearly prides herself on being an unflappable cynic, couldn’t even put forward so much as a single convincing rebuttal or counter point to any of my own. And do you know why? Because she relies on her own self derived superiority as a means of asserting her intelligence on others. She believes that because she went to college, her opinion is automatically the right one. Simply put, she doesn’t like to be challenged. Oh well, anyway, below is our riveting exchange:

Cinead

October 28, 2016 at 7:09 PM

The legend of Nessie isn’t a modern creation, it’s first mention was in the year 565 when Columba was said to have banished it after it made to attack one of his priests. Now that may have been a fabrication, yet the belief in Kelpies (Water-horses/Water-demons) in Scotland stretches back well into antiquity. By you omitting that, either means you dig no further into a subject than the people you all like to tear down, or you chose not to mention how far back the legend truly dates, simply to reinforce your own dismissive opinion. Also, the first modern sighting was in 1802.

 

Reply

October 28, 2016 at 7:22 PM

Errr, not quite. You need to look more closely at the St Columba sighting. It was clearly retrofitted into the post-monster era. Also, Nessie is distinct from the kelpie legend but there is some muddled area in there. Usually (as in this case perhaps), skeptical scholars know more about the entirety of the story than those that wish to “tear down” said skeptics. Cryptozoology legends are almost always sloppy in their historical context and accuracy in order to bolster the preferred monster claim.

Essential Reference: Abominable Science by Loxton & Prothero.

 

Reply

Cinead

October 28, 2016 at 8:05 PM

I’m well aware of the difficulties of classifying Scotland’s water based mythological creatures under the term Kelpie, but Nessie would fall under that name, as it applies to many uncategorised mythological water creatures as it stands. Also, Columba’s sighting, whether or not factual, still goes a long way in helping to date the legend. Fact is, Nessie, regardless of what it was called then, has existed as a legend for far longer than since the 30’s, That is correct, isn’t it?

And what is sloppy about folkloric accounts, they are what people once believed. So even if they don’t provide you with a clear provenance, dates and figures, doesn’t mean they should be thrown out of any discussion offhand, after all, the belief in them was originally there.

Regardless, Nessie is old, any Scottish water spirit can be classified as a Kelpie, thanks to the lack of clear definition saying otherwise, and no one really cares about fossils anymore, so light-heartedly tying it to an aspect of popular culture is a helpful way to get it read by the wider public.

 

Reply

October 28, 2016 at 8:35 PM

Contrary to some sources, there is no tradition of sightings, nor are there old historical reports or anything like that pre-dating the 1930s.

Magin, U. 2001. Waves without wind and a floating island – historical accounts of the Loch Ness monster. In Simmons, I. & Quin, M. (eds) Fortean Studies Volume 7. John Brown Publishing (London), pp. 95-115.

It’s not lighthearted to connect it to fossils, it is misinformation. People think it’s true and that is not a good thing.

 

Reply

Cinead

October 28, 2016 at 9:09 PM

It’s not really misinformation, they don’t say it is “Nessie” they just make the connection because one is a legendary sea creature belonging to Scotland, and the other is a legitimate sea creature found in Scotland. I get what you’re saying, but there really is no fight needing fought in regards to the fossil and statement.

Exactly, not all sources are going to corroborate. You acknowledge the ones that reinforce your argument, and I do the same with those that reinforce mine. Columba was real, Adomnan, whose work ties Columba to the legend, states that he banished the “Water-beast” and that to me ties the belief in water beasts to at least the 565 in Scotland.

As an important source for early Scottish history, with works that corroborate with similar writings of that time, I don’t see why Adomnan as a source should be discredited. Water based creatures are rife in Scottish folklore, this is fact, but just because “Nessie” has survived into the modern era and become a staple of pop culture, does not mean that its origins suddenly stop being ancient in nature simply because we know it by another name.

 

Reply

October 28, 2016 at 9:29 PM

You are making the mistake that the current legend is equivalent to the historic claims. That is a fallacy. I suggest you consult not only the references I supplied before but also Naish’s Hunting Monsters and Meurger’s Lake Monster Traditions – essential for an informed discussion about historical versus modern takes on traditional lake monster motifs.

 

Reply

Cinead

October 28, 2016 at 9:48 PM

Fallacy, no. A continuation of a belief system, yes. You are wrong, and have done little to answer anything I’ve said, opting simply to pick and choose tiny parts of my comments that fit with the preloaded rebuttal you already have at hand. Nessie is older than you wish to accept, fact. You also realise that on the whole, you are wrong, another fact. You simply like to crusade against banal causes, of which, only you deem them causes worth crusading against. I do not expect you to allow this comment to go through.

 

She didn’t reply back.

Also, I’ m well aware of the irony of me calling her out for crusading against banal nonsense, and as to which, am wholeheartedly unrepentant 🙂

Cinead MacAlpin.

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The Irish “Daily mail” A correspondence.

mjnhbgv

“The Scotch showed that thay (Learn to fucking spell) are all kilt and no sporran when they were given a chance”

First of all, the accepted term for a collection of Scots is Scottish, secondly, if i had wanted to be taken seriously I maybe shouldn’t have called these little Irelander’s “Feinian’s” But what choice did I have, they started it after all with the “Scotch” carry on. But seriously, you have one bigoted commenter at least making an impassioned argument whilst she vomits her hate filled rant out into the world, and then you have the Idiot, whose only contribution to this entire circle-jerk of an American run website is the same knee-jerk, scumbag vitriol one would expect to find on the more reputable of bigoted publications such as the daily mail or the guardian.

Also, is that really an Irish women lecturing Scotland on its urge to become an independent nation, after what happened in her country, does no one else see the irony, an Irish nationalist, and no doubt an IRA supporter or sympathizer, is basically saying/asking why, Scotland, an ethnic and culturally separate nation of people would/shouldn’t want, to be governed by another wholly separate nation, whose only our neighbor by sheer luck. Is she really that much of a wretched piece of dirt, that she feels superior enough to dictate to an entire people why they shouldn’t be independent, as though just because her country is now free, they’re suddenly and automatically different to every country on earth, yet not so long ago, they themselves were considered British.

Does she not see the similarities in her own rhetoric and that which would have once been told to her own people by the British establishment? No? probably not, for that level of intelligence is clearly too much to ask of a women who comments four paragraphs worth of nonsense into the comment section of a two-bit, plastic paddy, St Patrick’s day inspired celebration of everything Irish, which is run by Americans who publish any old shite with even the weakest of connections to something vaguely “Irish”

And then you have Red Rover, whose comment isn’t exactly infuriating, but is rather comical in its thickness, rather than its attempt at humor, for what kind of Irishman is this, which doesn’t even recognize a Gaelic name when he reads one, after all, Cinead is a Scottish Gaelic first name, which means handsome, fair-haired etc… And although it isn’t an Irish name, they have similar equivalents so that you would expect this Rover dildo to know the difference between my name, and that of sinaid O’Conner, who he so clearly assumes me to be.

But hey! What do you expect from a bunch of plastic paddies on an American website whose only link to Ireland is a great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great grandfather called Patrick Maloney from county cork or the one named after mayonnaise?

Regardless, I sent a very late reply in response to both the Idiot and Vincent, now it’s under moderation, but I couldn’t resist calling them “Dum paddies”, so it’s probably not going to get approved. Which is why I made a note of it before posting, so, if it doesn’t make the cut for this illustrious website, then I’ll just chuck it in here instead. Also, if your Irish, sorry bout the whole Feinian “crack” (Aye, that’s right, your “Criac” word is just an Irish attempt at pretending the Scottish/Northern English word, Crack, is an old mystical Irish word for laughter or some bullshite)

Anyway, please don’t send a letter bomb through my door, or take me hostage or anything, I mean, that’s what you lot are best known for, isn’t it? I mean, you all like to pretend to be poets and magical fey folk and such, but really, your entire contribution to the modern world has been the spreading of terrorism. Oh, also, remember, no bombs please…cause that really would be bad “CRACK”. Bah-dum, tish!

 

In defense of my culture. A correspondence

 

david@your-kilt.com to you

Hi Cinead,

Thank you for your comments, while it is true
that the Welsh have no historical documented
evidence of kilt wearing, the same can also be
said of the Isle of Mann, Cornwall, Ireland, and
many other regions who claim Celtic heritage, and
wear kilts.

Scottish tartans mostly date back only to the Victorian
era, so even they are a part of a relatively modern
marketing strategy.

Kindest Regards,

David.

Me to davidSent

Aye thats true in regards to the tartan, and the idea that it pertains to a certain Clan, though it is still soley indicative of Scottish culture, however modern that certain aspect may be. So even though Scotland, which, while a part of a wider Celtic diaspora, its culture is not itself indicative of the culture of the Celts as a whole. If you would like, I could send you a copy or email of my own extensive forays into the origins of the Kilt, which is a decendant of the great plaid, a garment mentioned as being worn, pre 1500,s in Scotland. After all, surely you would not be so ignorant as to continue hoodwinking gullible customers into purchasing the national dress of a completely seperate ethnic group and nation simply for your own gain?, certainly not, I imagine, were you to in fact accept my offer, and in doing so count yourself the more honest for it.

Regards, and yours sincerely, a MacDonald of clanranald.

david@your-kilt.com to you

Hi Cinead,

Thank you for your reply, I take on board
the valid points you make, and I would be
delighted to read your research on the origins
of the kilt in Scotland.

Indeed not only I, but the visitors to this
website, approx six hundred of them daily
would be very interested to read your research.

Perhaps you would consider putting your work
into an article, and submitting it to me using
the form on the following page of my site.

http://www.your-kilt.com/your-kilt-story.html

You will be credited as author of the work, and
if you have photos, they would be included with
the article.

Kindest Regards,

David.

 

Me to davidSent

Thank you david, and sorry for the late reply. I would very much like to do that. Though you will have to bear with me, the information is fortunately already in an article format. When I do upload it however, I look forward to you and your many, many site visitors reading it.

David Duncan to you

Hi Cinead,

Thank you for your email, I look forward to receiving your

article at your convenience.

 

Kindest Regards,

David.

Me to David DuncanSent
I just tried to upload my article, but I exceeded the allotted amount of word’s. I cannot edit it down further, so, I guess you win. I hope your happy, David. My culture is not a game, it is not a marketing strategy, nor a gimmick, and, if as your name suggests, you yourself are a Scotsman? Then shame on you my friend, for selling out the most recognisable aspect of your culture.

This correspondence is between me and a Kilt manufacturer who sells Welsh ‘clits’ and ‘Irish Kilts’, the article of which, I tried to send to the address he provided, is the very same one entitled: In defence of my culture.

Please, if you are an American of Welsh or Irish descent, please read my abovementioned article before you sink money into this man’s unscrupulous business. This is MY culture, MY heritage… I want it to thrive, outwith ignorance and lies. This is not you’re culture! It has nothing to do with you! You have no ancestral link to this garment, you’re ancestors never wore this… for godsake read a fucking book.

What did Sir Jamie Douglas die for? Or the bold Bruce, or Sir Wallace, or Galcacus the swordsman, or Sir John hepburn (The greatest fighting man in Christendom), or Sir Charles Ewart… these men were Scottish, not fucking ‘Celtic’! Soar Alba! Fuck the ‘Celts’.

I will update this post as things unfold. Also, I dont know what the fuck is up with the format, so, whatever.

Update: